An Accidental Interview with Lieutenant Phil Dreyer
25 03 2007Some folks at the Bexar County Sheriff’s Office have a very different view of the law than I do, and this “accidental interview” should demonstrate those differences rather clearly. We’ve all heard the myths about Texas lawmen and their, errr.. improvisational legislative interpretations. I’m sure one Lieutenant Phillip Dreyer doesn’t take much shame in this myth - in fact, he seems to be doing his best to live up to that stereotype. But I’m getting ahead of myself, kids … first, despite several weeks passing since the incident, my notes were taken that evening. So, I believe the below to be a very accurate and fair encapsulation.
On the night of Feburary 5, 2007, while walking around San Antonio to get some night shots, I noted the rather cool way one of the canals was being lit on East Nueva Street, so decided to take some pictures of it.
A few frames later, a man approached out of the corner of my eye (in plain clothes) and said,
“Can I see some ID?”
My instinctive response, before I saw what he was holding, was “no.”
As he shouted, “I better or you’re goin’ t’ jaail!”, I noticed he was displaying in his hand some sort of police identification.
Finding him unusually aggressive, noting his weapon and ID, and hearing his threat of arrest if I did not produce identification, I decided to show him my license.
“Are you taking pictures for personal use or a company?”
“Well, it depends.. probably personal, but I suppose if someone wants to run them, they can… why?”
(getting in my face) “You ever hear of September the 11th?”
“Uhhh, yeah, but I’m not sure what it has to do with this.”
“You are between two buildings, housin’ communications equipment.”
“OK… and I am in a public place, taking pictures of things in plain view. There’s nothing secret or sensitive here. I mean, if I had criminal intent, do you really think I’d be out here in the open like this taking photos?”
“You’d be surprised.”
“I would? Have you ever caught such a person?”
As he began a call on his cell phone (my license in hand) and talked (or pretended to talk) with someone, I noticed a news crew setting up about 50 meters away. He ended his call shortly thereafter and our conversation continued.
“How do I know you’re not going to give these pictures to someone [to do harm]?”
“Well, I suppose you don’t - but how do you plan to ascertain that by checking my identification?”
(shouting again) “LOOK - you give me any lip, and you’re goin’ t’ jaail!”
I was really beginning to feel physically intimidated by this guy and sensed that I could only “push” him so far until he would decide to arrest me on a bullshit charge or two for “sassing” him. He absolutely seemed like the sort of law-man who was not above exaggerating and bending the rules to teach a smart-talkin’ Yank a lesson.
Seemingly ordering me out of the view of the camera crew, he said, “stand over there!” and gestured toward the canal and rear of the buildings. I did not, as I had started to see the news crew as a sort of rescue chute. I was actually getting nervous with this guy, and knew if something nastier began to unfold, I could get it on the 11 o’clock news.
“Look, I’m not trying to be difficult, I’m standing up for my right to take pictures without being shaken down like this.”
Repeating himself, “there’s two buildings here, housin’ communications equipment…”
“Yes, you said that.. but what would be IN the pictures, out here, that would pose some kind of threat if someone saw it? And what about them [pointing toward camera crew]? They’re taking pictures.”
He nearly lept out of his shoes and up into my face, just a few inches away, this time jabbing his finger at my chest. He shouted,
“Don’t tell me how to do my job, you understand? I will take you t’ jaail!”
Noting he was approximately a hair’s breadth from assaulting me without any kind of provocation - not so much as a raised voice from me - I said,
“Be careful.”
I actually noted him checking himself for a moment, the way a person does who’s gone to anger management classes. He backed off slightly, and said (a touch less loudly than the last sentence but no less enraged),
“Don’t tell me how to do my job.”
“I am not telling you how to do your job. I was telling you that they, too, are taking pictures.”
“That’s telling me how to do my job.”
“No, it isn’t. Look, am I being detained?”
“No.”
“Then I’d like my ID back and I’m going to leave.”
He put my license back into my hand, and pointed off into the distance behind me - still so close to me that when he did so his arm extended well over my shoulder - and yelled “GO!”
And that’s where my encounter with Lieutenant Phillip Dreyer ended. What upsets me is not just the ignorance and discourtesy of one Bexar County Sheriff’s officer. I realize my encounter sits ridiculously low on the Richter Scale of injustices. But it is one more drop in the ocean of shit Americans have gleefully sipped up in the name of “security”.
Several weeks later, two things are bugging me about this. First, when can we shed the misguided idea that taking photographs is somehow suspicious activity? This is absurd on its face. Can we dispense of this silly notion with zero basis in reality? It’s really sad when talented photographers are writing about how to stay “below police radar” when practicing their art.
The second thing that bothers me about this is that any sane, intelligent person knows that Lieutenant Dreyer, in his heart, had no honest suspicion about my behavior; he merely saw an opportunity to exercise his power. Setting aside that I believe he did so illegally, such incidents are happening to people all the time, and at a much higher cost than I paid.
Yet, few of us seem to care - and I find myself wondering how far we will allow such madness to go.
Thanks for the story. My own solution to addressing this problem of ridiculous overzealousness is . . . taking more pictures. And pushing back very firmly against any undeserved pressure.
Photographers: please download The Photographer’s Right, a great flyer by attorney Bert Krages. [h/t Marty Lyons]
I’d stick up for yourself & file a complaint with the Bexar County Sheriff Dept’s internal affairs/internal control/risk management or whatever PCish term they might have for it these days. You’d be doing so quite a bit after the fact, which is unfortunate, but give Lt. Dreyer some heat for his actions. Illegal conduct carried out ‘under the color of the law’ is investigated by the FBI, so maybe let them know, as well as the local district attorney/prosecuting attorney’s office, in case there have been numerous other citizen complaints about Dreyer in the past, or might be more in the future. Since you unfortunately smelled his breath, could he have been drunk at the time?
ALSO, let’s investigate & publicize the “communications buildings” that this knucklehead was rambling about, then send their owners and/or operators a letter explaining that an off-duty Bexar County Sheriffs Lt by the name of Phil Dreyer is doing a gross disservice to them by harassing members of the public in the area, and justifying his stupid & perhaps illegal actions by pointing out to these strangers that there is allegedly critical communications infrastructure located right there.
Your concerns over Dreyer’s conduct seem to have an infinitely stronger foundation than his concerns over your conduct.
I wish of course you’d politely said “no” to him when he demanded ID, but…
Another idea: send an “FYI” type letter to the local chamber of commerce & convention & visitor’s bureau explaining (your version of) what happened, that you’ve told many other people about the event, and that while you otherwise had a great time there patronizing businesses, etc. you will not be back, and you feel obligated to caution others about going to that area, because solely & specifically of Bexar County Sheriff Dept. Command Officer Phil Dreyer’s unwarranted attack & hostility directed towards you.
And another fun thing:
Organize a group of people to wander the area with cameras, and snap lots of photos. Have at least one person positioned at a distant vantage point where they could record on video-tape any ugly encounters with Dreyer or someone else.
Hooligan -
Thanks.
I initially declined to show my ID, but he clearly told me I would be arrested if I did not present it. You and I know this is not legal. A friend who is a reporter for a major daily hit on this as well - he said “this would have made a great story if you’d taken him up on that offer.” Well, I’ll remember that next time. ;-p I honestly just did not want to go through it to prove the point.
I am certain he was not intoxicated. Drunk on badge power, maybe - but not alcohol.
I considered an IA complaint to the Bexar County Sheriff’s Office, but have no confidence it would make a whit of difference. I do believe public light/heat, as I’m aiming for here, has much more potential impact.
Finally, the buildings were Bexar County buildings, and according to him, he was teaching a class inside one of them at the time of the incident.
Also: I noticed the next morning there is a security camera in the back of one of the buildings. I’d really love to see the tape.
It was my understanding that laws requiring people to show ID to a police officer, even if there was no crime being committed or probable cause, were ok. A quick check on PapersPlease.org and WikiPedia shows this to be the case. As much as one might disagree with the Supreme Court in this matter, I think it’s been settled. At least, for now…
Rob is incorrect. There is no requirement to show ID to cops. What the law says is that cops can parse the language to encourage ID showing. But there is not a requirement.
No Rob - the Supreme Court decided (5-4) that a citizen can be compelled to show ID only when the officer has “reasonable suspicion” of criminal activity. I don’t see how this could pass that test. It’s doubtful the Bexar County Sheriff cares.
During the cold war, it was commonly said by people
who’d visited the Soviet Union that its restrictions
on public photography in “sensitive” areas, and its
omnipresent “your papers please” demands from the
police, were exemplars of its being a police state.
Now it seems the shoe is on the other foot…..
I don’t understand, he received a service pin, they only give these to the best.
Check out page 2 of the BEXAR COUNTY LOCAL EMERGENCY PLANNING COMMITTEE:
This could mean that top secret communication equipment was stored in the building…
But maybe the most interesting thing is that they have a picture of Bin Laden on the Sheriff’s website. Maybe San Antonio is hotbed of terror related activity…
I’m sorry that this happened to you. Thanks for reporting on it. It’s only by reporting on these incidents and raising awareness that we can make the world a more tolerable place for public photography.
Photography is not a crime.
Blogged here: http://thomashawk.com/2007/03/lieutenant-phillip-dreyer-even-in-bexar.html
I had a very similar run-in with some MBTA (transit/subway) cops about a month back, it’s detailed at http://badcharlie.blogspot.com/.
I’m still pondering whether or not I should file a complaint for the illegal seizure which took place. Luckily for me, though, we (meaning photographers in general and the ACLU) were able to have the policy changed. I just carry it around with me. Been stopped twice, both cops left me alone after showing them the documentation.
As for you, consider carrying around Krages PDF The Photographers Right.
Luck,
Jason
Rob, that’s incorrect. Read up on Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. In short, the officer must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed.
Jason
If I read the Hiibel decision correctly, the legality of the arrest there depended on a Nevada statute that made it a misdemeanor not to provide identification when detained. Not all states have such laws. In particular, I don’t believe Texas’ statute is similar. Texas Penal Code §38.02(a) makes it a misdemeanor to refuse to give your name, address, and date of birth when arrested. Subsection (b) makes it a misdemeanor to give a false name, address, or date of birth when you are arrested, you are detained, or the officer has good cause to believe you are the witness to a criminal offense. Neither of these appears to require a person who is detained (but not arrested) to provide identification.
He’s an embarrassment to Law Enforcement & to Texas.
San Antonio’s #1 source of income is tourism. Heck it’s the tourism capital of Texas. What do tourists have? Cameras.
Someone needs to teach the LEOs of San Anton about photographer’s rights.
Sounds good, Kenneth, about providing ID. It does not say you have to show a DL or ID, you just have to say it (truthfully).
You might beat the rap, but not the ride. I would file a formal complaint.
My interest is in this topic is my contact with the NYPD/NYC. I was caught in a sting/revenue generation exercise on a morning commute into Manhattan - I turned left on my green arrow from 42st & 8th ave only to be confronted with 50-100 pedestrians walking against their Dont Walk signs. I waited a minute and eventually found a gap and completed my turn. I got to 43rd street and saw an NYPD officer (1 of 30) walk from this 43rd st corner passed me and then back to in front of me - he motioned me over and said I had “cut” the double yellow lines back at 42nd. He took my papers and 45mins later came back with 4 summonses - failing to give way to pedestrians, reckless driving, failing to give way to oncoming traffic, crossing double yellows. I went from 0 & a perfect record to 15 points in 60secs…
It turns out, me and the 30cars they pulled over with me were setup by the fact that the crosswalk cops were deliberately letting people cross illegally while the string cops roped in the victims. I fought hard and won after a few $000’s. The reader should have figured out by now that the cop that wrote the summons was a block away from this intersection and could not have even SEEN my car from the 100’s of 9am pedestrians surrounding him. He signed the tickets and thus lied thru his teeth bigtime. I did nothing wrong. I will never trust or support the NYPD scum ever again - thats a fact.
About 2months later - also on the morning commute I was on 23rd st around Lex ave, when I was faced with an NYPD patrol car coming at me on the wrong side of the road with no flashers,horns or sirens going.
The lights changed and I moved a few feet into the intersection and put both hands up (one out the window) in a calm gesture of “I dont know what we should do here?”.
The cops pull back to left side of the street in front of me and slowing pull off passed me and then 60secs later turned around and ran me down in the next block with full lights/sirens going - just to ask me about “my strange facial expressions and what was my problem” with the verbal threats for 5mins of “dealing with this in court”. They never asked for my DL etc. I said no and they ran back to their car parked across my lane and the other sides, and just sped off - initimidating little asswipes & a disgrace to their uniform that they were.
It only goes to validate the purpose of vehicle DVRs for civlians - they have them and so sadly should we.
DoNOT under any circumstances trust a NYPD cop - if they can set you up, or screw you in same other way, they will.
“You are between two buildings, housin’ communications equipment.”
Sounds like the cop just gave away “sensitive information” to someone he regarded as a potential terrorist.
I’ve had several similar run-ins in NY state. It’s very sad, and sometimes I now feel like a criminal when I take pictures. When the cops go by, you think, oh oh. That’s not how it should be.
I would call you a liar except, I don’t have enough fingers to count the number of times the same thing has happened to me. I am frankly as tired of it as I am the fearmongering put upon us and overreaction that this nation has come to.
I’m done being nice. Next time I am going to jail. And I will take it to the nth degree. Taking photos of publicly visible buildings is not illegal, even if bush HAS taken away most of our freedoms.
I have encountered a Bexar County Sheriff officer once, it was not a pleasant experience, he was very rude, and I was doing nothing wrong. I hate to judge based on just one sheriff’s deputy, but by the sounds of your experience, I feel safer judging.
Scary!
Typical. Honestly, it’s typical. I’ve had several similar experiences. You are certainly not alone.