Pacific Park Must Clarify Their Photography Policy

18 01 2009

Before I get into this story I want to set the psychographic stage, because I’ve been through this enough now to know what kind of conversations these controversies stir up.

My 2007 incident in San Antonio [see An Accidental Interview With Lieutenant Phil Dreyer] – which was much scarier and more flagrant than the one I’m writing about today – made me realize how out-of-fashion standing up for your rights has become, and also how much it opens you up to criticism for being a troublemaker (and more).

People like Thomas Hawk and Carlos Miller have famously faced this as well. The assumption (often verbalized) is that we’re belligerent, in-your-face assholes who go to places sticking our cameras (and our laminated, marked-up copies of the First Amendment) in people’s faces, looking and hoping for a fight. Sorry, but that’s just not true.  I absolutely hate these confrontations and just want to make my  pictures and be left alone.  For instance, I had a terribly embarrassing and awkward police / photography incident at LAX a few months back and decided not to write about it because of the rather sensational issues it would raise.   So trust me, I am not in this for the fight.

Those of you who know me personally know that I am polite, calm, and treat everyone with the same patience and respect that I expect of others.  I also know and appreciate that people have jobs to do and I understand they are often working with very confused or limited information from their superiors.

Having said that, unlike most people, I do not fold like a lawn chair when approached by someone with a patch on their shoulder. If I think something is bullshit, I will tell them. Thus, in a society where instant compliance with any and all authority – legitimate or not – has become de rigueur, no matter how absurd the request or demand, I am sometimes the odd man out.

But I am, for lack of a better term, a really nice guy.  I’m sorry I have to preface with all that, but I wanted to (try to) head off that line of discussion. Those of you who do not know me personally will just have to take my word for it. Now, on with the show.  [Italics represent approximations of what was said; quotes are quotes.]

On Friday night, January 16, determined to overcome my high ISO phobia, I went out to make some night pictures of Venice and Santa Monica. I eventually made my way to the Santa Monica Municipal Pier, and wandered into Pacific Park, the amusement park situated thereon.  I began taking a few shots of the neon signs inside the park, and was almost immediately approached by an employee wearing a “Pacific Park Security” uniform.

Entrance to Pacific Park, Santa Monica Pier

Entrance to Pacific Park, Santa Monica Pier

He politely told me that if I was “taking pictures of your family, etc. that’s no problem, but…” and then just trailed off, apparently expecting me to simply comply and stop and disappear. But I persisted, asking: “but what?” He again attempted to describe “family” and such as acceptable subject matter, but random pictures of the park definitely were not.

I asked him how he would know if it’s my family.  Is this checked? I told him this seemed like a really weird policy.  To illustrate, I tossed him a couple questions: do they need to be related by blood or is marriage OK? – or – theoretically, if I just wanted a picture of the Ship A Hoy ride, could I bring in my family, photograph the ride with them wayyyy down in the corner, then just Photoshop them out?  If not, how do you plan to prevent this?

Clearly uncomfortable with my crazy talk, he said, “let me take you to someone who can explain it better.”

He then led me a short distance to a second security guy who explained that it’s OK to take pictures of “people, etc.” but I could not take pictures of park “things.”  He described it as “private property” and “you see, everything you photograph in this park, it’s copyrighted.”  I replied, “yes, copyrighted by the photographer.”

He seemed confused by that.  So I asked, “is it a question of the subject matter of the photograph? that’s the basis of the policy?”  Yes, he said, that’s the policy.  “Otherwise, you need to sign a waiver and show ID.”

I asked how they determine what I’m photographing. Do you review the photos? “For instance, your colleague said it was ‘family’;  how do you know who my family is?”

He did not have an answer for that, so decided instead to move on to a new line of reasoning.  He said that “if it’s for commercial use” I would need to sign.  Then – quite relieved – I said, “oh cool, then, because this isn’t for commercial use.  So, can I go take some shots?” But still he said no, that I would need to sign the waiver if I wanted to take pictures of “park property.”  I was confused, and told him so:  You just said that the waiver was required if the images were for “commercial use”.  They are most definitely not for commercial use.  So why do I need to show ID and sign a document?

The apparent policy shifting yet again, he said that even though I wasn’t shooting commercially, I needed to comply if I wanted to photograph “park property.”  Photographing their property was now the issue at hand.

I said, I’ve photographed “park property” (such as the ferris wheel) at least 100 times, sometimes from ON the pier, but most of the time from the beach or elsewhere along the coast. I don’t understand why you’d have a policy about photographing “park property” when most of those shots are taken from outside the park – I mean, it’s not enforceable enough to be a useful policy. He said, “well, once you step out of Pacific Park we can’t do anything about it.”  I said, yes, that’s my point – how is that a useful policy, since easily 99% of the acts that the policy seeks to prevent are unpreventable.  (Google Earth, anyone?)  To his credit, he seemed a lot less confused than I was.

He reiterated that I would need to sign a waiver to keep taking pictures and I would also need to present identification.  I asked him about all these other people – taking pictures and enjoying their weekend outing at the Park; quite literally as we were speaking, flashes were popping around us.  Finally, calm but clearly at the end of his rope with me, he offered to get someone else to talk with me about it.

On his radio he seemed to request a Santa Monica Community Service Officer, and that seemed a little odd since I was supposedly on “private property” (and at the time I believed that.)  Thus, I doubted Santa Monica police officials would be able to help us understand Pacific Park’s “private” policy.

But I never saw that officer.  Instead, a few minutes later, a third person showed up.  He – Gerald – asked how he could help me, and I told him I was just hoping to get clarity on the photography policy because these two guys are telling me different stuff, but in a nutshell they are telling me I can’t take pictures.  In an exaggerated physical move, he looked me up and down and I did the same back at him, unsure what it was about.  He explained that he was just checking out what kind of camera I had. For the record – as if it should matter – I had my Nikon D700 with a Nikkor 50mm lens on it. (The 50 was making its maiden voyage on the D700, in fact – and that combo is small and subtle compared to what I’m usually carrying around.)

Gerald then asked what the pictures were for and I said they were for me. He gave that a half-head-shake, seeming to think that was weird.   I said there are others taking pictures around us as we speak.  He gestured around the park and said, “everyone you see here is subject to the exact same rules”.   I said if that were true you would be speaking to all of these other people as well, but you’re not. Or perhaps you would post a sign, but I did not see one at the entrance (I checked).

I told Gerald about the “family” rule I was given initially and he acted like that was the first he’d heard of it, too.  Gerald said that all they were asking me to do is sign a waiver “to protect you” from “us suing you.”  I told Gerald it does not protect me at all to enter into any kind of contract with Pacific Park. You can sue me if you wish; I can sue you if I wish. But I don’t wish to sue you, Gerald, I just want to take some pictures, and I’m desperately seeking clarity here, because I continue to see others taking pictures as we speak and as far as I can tell, I’m the only one being hassled about it.

He then offered to bring me to his office out back somewhere so I can see the waiver and the vaporous photography policy he said he had back there, in writing. I declined his invitation because I didn’t want to sign the waiver, and judging from these conversations, I didn’t believe I’d see a written policy either.

Then the reasoning shifted yet again.  Gerald said I needed to sign a waiver “if it’s professional”. [So, for those keeping track, the policy has now evolved from the “family/no-family rule” to the “people/things rule” to the “commercial/non-commercial rule” to the "not our property" rule and now we have arrived at distinction number five, the “professional/amateur” rule.]

I asked Gerald how a professional is defined. Skill level?  Equipment? He said it was defined “by equipment”.  I asked what kind of equipment is allowed and what isn’t – e.g. I assume, then, that a professional photographer is allowed to take pictures with an old point-and-shoot, but an amateur isn’t allowed to take pictures with a nice camera? He replied, “look, with a camera like that, I can see why these guys approached you.”

So, tiring of the mental ride I was on, I attempted to bring it to conclusion by asking Gerald directly if I would be ejected from the park if I continued to take photographs. He did not give me a direct answer to that, but replied, “if you want to continue to take pictures you will need to come with me and sign” the document and provide identification. I did not wish to do so, so I declined and told him I would comply by not taking any more photographs and would instead leave Pacific Park.  We bid each other good evening and that was it.

It’s important to point out that all three of these guys were courteous. They all seemed quite exasperated with me, but each handled me in a friendly, respectful way.  Admittedly Gerald was courteous and friendly in that hurried, talking-through-his-teeth, slightly agitated kind of way, but he was at all points a professional.

And to their enormous credit, they never once threw out any bullshit pretense about “security”. Frankly it was great to have a run-in like this, that – while it might have felt a little Alice-in-Wonderlandish – never took on the absurdity of the “security” arguments I’ve had in the past.

Other than the total lack of policy clarity, what’s become interesting to me about this is their assertion that Pacific Park is “private property.” I believed it at the time, and have immense respect for private property rights.  Basically I feel that a property owner ought to be able to put in place just about any policy they want, no matter how stupid the rest of us might think it is.

But upon further reflection, I don’t understand how Pacific Park can fit the legal definition of private property. Perhaps it can, but the entire pier is owned by the City of Santa Monica (thus the name “Santa Monica Municipal Pier”), and Pacific Park appears to lease the space from the City (as Santa Monica Amusements LLC.)  The Park is entirely surrounded by – and from a purely physical point of view literally sits atop – public property.

Thus, Pacific Park appears to be a private service operating on public property. I might be wrong here, and I’ll let the lawyers out there more clearly define this for us.

So, given all this – that Pacific Park is open to the public and operated on a municipal pier – I am having a very hard time understanding how any of the policies advanced to me on Friday night could be legal.  They may very well be – and it may very well (somehow) be private property – but at this point neither the property status nor the photography policy are at all clear to me.

So, the outstanding questions as I see them are:

  • Is Pacific Park “private property”, as the staff alleged to me?
  • What is Pacific Park’s photography policy?
  • If Gerald was correct, and the policy is based on the equipment being used, is there a public list available of permitted and disallowed equipment?

I will be inquiring of the Pier staff this week for clarity on all of this, and will post it when I find out.  That information – I hope – will greatly help the photographers who find themselves on and around the Santa Monica Municipal Pier each day.

[UPDATE 1: First Amendment attorney Bert Krages (author of The Photographer's Right and Legal Handbook for Photographers) has some analysis on photography in "public forums" - even those privately owned - here. Thanks, Bert!]

  • I do a lot of time-lapse photography, and was getting some shots on the Santa Monica pier yesterday. These require a tripod of course. Anyway, there is a great overhead view of the beach from the pier, and I was lining up a shot. Two Santa monica police officers came up and said someone reported me for "suspicious activity", and started questioning me. They wanted ID and wrote up some sort of report, yet said I was not in trouble. Of course anyone with common sense could see I was just a photographer practicing his art. After getting my info, I asked them why they were stopping me, and the reply was I was free to go. I think I handled the situation just fine, but after reading up on the experiences of others in this situation there is one thing I would recommend. As soon as possible, politely ask the officer "are you being detained, or are you free to go?" It's possible that they have no real grounds to detain you, and be able to leave and spare yourself some aggravation. I'm not sure it would have worked in my situation, but it might have.
  • As I mentioned in my email to you, I think I probably would have respectfully declined the ID request to see where we went from there.
  • Rose Skegg
    I'm a college student studying photography and I have been similarly eyed down by security personnel while carrying around a large DSLR. I believe that I have never been bothered because I look like a young, harmless girl. They know nothing about my commercial sales or intentions. I have also seen many men shooting at tourist spots but when they are with family the security pays them no notice even if they have a large SLR with a huge lens and even a fanny pack filled with more supplies. It's completely biased. It's social profiling, being with family or being a woman makes it seem appear that you are no threat. Do you know of any family men or women being harassed in this same manner?
  • Mitch
    Most any business establishment--even "public service" places like restaurants, hotels--- has the "right to refuse service" to anyone, and that includes informing you that you are on private property and that you can be asked to leave for any reason that does not violate some basic federal laws against discrimination (ie. you were asked to leave because you belong to some protected minority group). They should inform you that if you don't leave, they will consider it a trespass and call a law enforcement authority. I don't think professional or even amateur photographers are part of a protected group.

    Combine this with the new times of living in fear and loathing brought on by politicians who attempt to win and justify their power by telling you that they must do everything possible to ensure your security. Especially if that means you happen to be photographing/videoing a public or private place/building, since it is clear to them your behavior is suspicious and intended to help terrorists (or you may have an innocent purpose, but the terrorists who acquire your video/images will not have such a purpose). And yes, I am being rather facetious in this paragraph.

    To minimize the hassle, I probably would have signed their silly waiver or consent form, if my purpose was strictly pleasure and not professional. I don't know how much they have the right to their visual image as a business entity, as captured with photographic equipment. I doubt they will even pay the high-priced lawyers they need to take this to the upper levels of the court system to assert that "right."
  • Paul
    Hi Anthony - I have photographed at the pier many times with my Canon 20D using a short lens. Most times, the security guards said nothing. But one time, the fellow was nice but insisted I had to sign a form. I mildly protested, then went to the security office, showed my ID and signed the document ( I didn't bother to read it) and went on my way and shot for another hour. I've found that you must pick your spots in these battles with red tape. It was worth my while to sign the piece of paper and get back to my job/fun of shooting pictures. It is frustrating that such policies seem to be hit and miss depending on the mood of that paticular day's security staff.
  • Paul,

    Seriously, dude, I think that is horrible advice. Especially considering you signed the document without reading it.

    What if you ended up with such a cool photo that people wanted to buy it? And then you learn that Pacific Park owns the rights to your photo?
  • Ted
    My shooting buddy, Greg, & I got hassled a few years ago while we were photographing at a tourist attraction railroad yard in Fillmore, Calif. In this case, the owner of the yard & the (restored) trains had a business selling the use of the place for commercial images & TV/movies. We were there photographing the trains. Note that the owners, like PP, didn't mind someone taking photos for their own personal consumption.

    But we were not alone that day. There was a man, with two small children, taking pictures, too -- of the trains (only); rarely would he shoot with his kids in view. We were photographing only the trains. We got rousted by the security guard; he did not.

    Why? He was shooting with a digital SLR; we were shooting with 8x10 view cameras. Ergo, to the security guy, we were obviously "pros" and our images were "obviously" for commercial use.

    Reality: Pros do not use view cameras (any longer; those days are gone). Only hobbyists use view cameras -- they're too slow and expensive (own/operate) for a pro to make any money with them now that SLRs and digital exist. (A noted exception is architectural photography, where perspective control is essential; digital is still trying to gain a toe-hold in that field.) By contrast, a digital SLR is a pro's main tool -- lightweight, powerful, modern lenses, etc.

    So the irony was, the hobbyists got hassled and the guy with the kids was, in any likelihood, an actual pro making commercial images. The guard was clueless -- but his boss would be, too.

    The outcome? Greg knew the owner, indirectly. We had his card, dropped his name to the guard, who then dialed "Jim" up to see if we were legit. Down came the chains and then we had the place to ourselves for the rest of the afternoon...
  • Looks like they have no problem with commercial photography on their property as long as it's on their terms. http://www.pacpark.com/shoots.php?location=shoots and http://www.pacpark.com/pdf/filmFlyer.pdf
  • Ken
    I work in the media, and we run into this problem all the time. There is a California statue that states that if there is reasonable expectation to public access, then you cannot deny the media from the area, even if it is private property. That holds true for a situtaion like this.I was out on the pier a couple weeks ago, with a friend, just hanging out, and would up taking a few photos with my digital elf camera. Those are now in her modeling portfolio. My thousands of dollars of proffessional equipment was in my car. Where's the line?

    Personally, I would have pushed the issue to the point where uniformed sworn police officers were called. That would be the final answer for me. I don't listen to a thing a rent-a-cop says, period, either in my proffessional modem or just playing around for myself.

    I have many times been denied certain equipment to events, based on the "professional grade" argument. But, again, where is that deliniation. I've seen more than my share of pros shooting with a Leica and a 50mm lens, and many college students with the latest and greatest SLRs that mommy and daddy bought them. Funny story, in Spring Training in FL last year, only one team had a problem with my 500mm lens, the Tampa Bay Rays. One of the ushers said I couldn't have a lens more that 12 inches in length. I told her that they A: should have a sign that said that when I came in, and B: my equipment was checked by the gate and allowed in. It's a 500 6.3, nowhere near proffessionall But they had no problem with my 70-200L 2.8 USM lens, which is pretty much the Default pro lens. I used my 500 with impunity the entire game, (Kick me out, and I'll go buy another $6 ticket and come right back in) Wound up selling a photo of Evan Longoria, even though there was no intent to take pictures for sale in the first place.
  • Ross
    Pre 9-11 you could shoot pictures of almost anything, companies such as Pacific Park, are now requiring more creditability from people with cameras. They use caution and have representatives ask for I.D., and for us to sign waivers etc. The reason there are people out there that take pictures and draw plans, plans that can be used in the wrong way. If you provide the ID that goes to show them who you are and they record the info. If down the road they need the information because of a threat or an incident, they have something to go on. I've been a professional photographer for 35 years, since 9-11, I've been asked for I.D. a lot more than pre 9-11. I use to say I get hassled a lot, now I say I get challenged for a good reason. I prefer going to places such as Pacific Park, knowing they are in today's mind set. Good Luck, buy the way I'm a Canon shooter.
  • Daniel Sofer,

    You are wrong about needing a property release for commercial use if you take a photo off their property, according to attorney First Amendment attorney Marc Randazza, whom I just finished interviewing for another matter.

    He said as long as you are standing on public property, you can photograph and sell images of any structure you photograph.

    http://randazza.wordpress.com/

    I asked him about the laws regarding photography while you're standing on private property and he said they can ask you to leave if it is private property.

    When I asked him about the laws regarding commercial photography while you're standing on their property, he said he needed to research that.
  • Alex
    I am familiar with Pacific Park's photo policy.

    If a mother takes a 'snap shot' of her kids, that's ok, but if security thinks that one is a pro or semi-pro photographer, they will ask you to sign a statement that says you are not taking photo for commercial purposes and that you will not be selling the images, etc. Press photography is allowed with permission.

    Pacific park is private property who rents from the city, just as Bubba Gump, Rusties, Arcade or any of the other business on the pier.
  • So, the press needs permission? Again as I say in the article - if you're leasing municipal from the city, and said property is open to the general public, I don't see how one can assert "private property" rights and bar photography - and most certainly not without any clear standard regulating the conduct....
  • al in la
    Remines me of what I saw at Yankee Stadium last summer. Waiting to get in, a guy in line in front of me was stopped because he had a camcorder. (It was obviously a consumer model.) The guard sternly said "Sorry, no video cameras allowed!" The guy explained that he had taken the train to the stadium and had no place to store the camera. They didn't care. (They do not check valuables either)

    Me? I had a Flicker video camera (about the size of a pack of cigarettes). I actually showed it to that same guard and asked "Is this ok?" He said "Sure."

    I took an hour of video including A-Rod's gaming wining hit and put on YouTude.

    Go figure.
  • Pamela Henstell
    I think you are lucky, given that private security guards don't seem to have much training and don't seem to have to answer to anyone. I'm not a lawyer, but isn't there some Unruh Act violated here? This worship of the arbitrary seems terminally stupid.
  • I had that exact same conversation with the Pacific Park people about five years ago. I did sign the waiver, which was a very small piece of paper that said you would not engage in commercial photography.

    If you stay on the main part of the pier, that is city property and they can't do anything about it. But the south "annex" of the pier is evidently their private property and they can do anything they want when you're on their property. Same at Disneyland or The Grove.

    I agree, the best shots of their physical assets are taken off the property, so this is a legal "finger in the dike" effort. But even on public land, if you are taking a photo that is only about their park - as opposed to a photo of the Santa Monica coastline - then you are still subject to a property release for commercial use.

    Their policy probably does keep out people shooting professional portraits and such.
  • Pat
    Maybe the guards had just read the same Michael Connelly mystery I just finished about a child molester taking pictures on the pier, and they let him go and then he kills a bunch of people.
  • Sounds like you became acquainted with Bert Krages' work subsequent to your pier encounter. I carry copies with me everywhere I go, and I do sell my work.

    The "private property" issue is the catch here. I can sell photos of anything, private or not, as "fine art." But images of unusual or unique private property would require a "property release" to be offered as stock for commercial use. Perhaps you should present the authorities with such a release for THEM to sign.
  • Again, private property, so the owners set the rules. I ran into the same thing at Victoria Gardens mall in the Ontario area. I was taking some streetscapes and a guard told me I could shoot family and friends, but not just buildings or scenics.
  • Dave
    It's privately owned.

    http://www.smdp.com/article/articles/4805/1/SMs...

    Great story by the way. I was sure there was going to be a big fight in there somewhere, and was relieved that it didn't happen that way.
  • Dave, thanks. Even if it's privately owned, we need a clarification of the policy.
  • Steve
    I agree there should be clarification, but there does not need to be. It would have been more clear if they has simply said No to you without explanation. As private property owners I think they can discriminate against you without justification. I don't like that, but I believe that is the case.

    To me a reasonable policy, that I have seen elsewhere, is no tripods. That's it. Take all the photos you want, with the camera you want, but don't interfere with the flow of traffic. That, and on the ticket put language saying that, among the other many conditions, you are not doing commercial photography without written permission. Then leave folks like you alone.
  • I still think a space that is open to the public and leased from the taxpayer is held to a different standard than truly private property, but we shall see.
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